This weekend is going to be a MESS in Indy!! 80,000 people are expected to be running around in Indy!! There was a reason why our home school conference was last week!! What's your guys' picks...that is if you have one! I think George mason will make it to the championship and get beat by LSU. But still, you never know. What are your ideas? George Mason may go all the way and shock everybody, but I am sticking with LSU. Actually I got invited to go down to Indy on Friday to watch the teams practice and do some other stuff. I might make another prediction afterwards. It should be interesting, however the traffic is certainly going to be far from pleasant!!
My last post had some interesting comments. I think that discussion is a good thing so keep commenting on your thoughts. One important issue was brought up. We all have the same facts, however it's our interpretation of those same facts are what's different. Your interpretation of the facts is based on your worldview. So even though you see a canyon and think "a lot of water, a little time" some one else might say "a little water a lot of time". It's all based off of your worldview.
Well, there's some thoughts that should hold you till' tomorrow, have a great night!
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21 comments:
If GM faces UCLA in the Final 4, I collect $150. (*sheepish smile*) However, I predict it'll be LSU v. Florida (all SEC!) with LSU winning...
Andrew, I got a faver to ask of you. You know those missionaries in Ukraine I told you about? Rod and Lydia Gorter? well they're moving back to Iowa, and their oldest son who's 18, Nathan, has just been asked to join a "christian" rock band my an old youth leader (who's a SHE!!!) and Lydia is very affraid that he's gonna join them. he doesn't seem to understand the dangers of rock and is being deeply influenced by it. Lydia, I know, does not go for the whole contemperary music and christianity thing, so he really needs prayers for decernment.
...I know I am kinda jumpin in on this one, but what are the "dangers of rock" as you see them? I hope no one jumps down my throat on this, I am just interested in hearing your views:
There are a few books out there that I could tell you about that would explain my reasons. I do like rock, but I do have to limit how much I listen to it. And the only difference (I think) in "christian" rock and regular rock is just the lyrics and what is that compared to the beat? If you're too rapped up in the beat what kind of an impact will lyrics make? basically, it makes it easier to of the world then in it. You gotta watch out for anything the world does or says because half the time it's not okay with God.
About church worship, my mom read this book called "With Reverance and Awe" and it has changed some of her and my views of worship forever. The focus of the worhsip sevice to God, what he has done for us, and etc. This means that during the songs we must pay attention and kinda meditate on the words and what better way to do it than without music? That's right I mean no piano, organ, drums, guitar or anything with the lyrics. I just wish some churches here would realise that. I went to a contemperary church for 2 years so I know what the contemperary music in church feeling is like, and I don't mean to make anyone feel bad it's just my opinion. What are you guys's views on worship?
Sorry, I talk too much.
no, please, feel free to talk. I am interested.
I went to an RP church for a while and I love when the church I currently go to sings a-cappella. However, we are commanded to praise God with instruments. You could say that it is easiest to worship God in song, and so we shouldn't sit under preaching... you wouldn't say this (I would guess), but can you see how it is the same thing? It would be claiming that you are wiser than God. If he says that he wishes to be praised on instruments, then even if it's more difficult to pay attention to the words (especially if you're playing the instrument) it should still be done.
What do you think?
As far as "rock" is concerned, I don't agree that the only difference between "christian" and secular rock is the lyrics. That may often be true, but I think real Christian rockers (like Bono, Ed Roland, and Dan Haseltine) write music from a Christian world view. This means that even love songs that they may write will come from this context. They may not be singing God's praises every-other line, but they are praising God with their voices (and beats --- see Andy Hunter)
I think you're on the right track "ben crum", but Bono? What makes you think he's a Christian?
Yes, we are commanded to praise God with instruments but where in the bible are we commanded to? In the old or new testemant? I think that has something to do with it...
and about rock, well, i think that christian rock is different in a way, but listening to christian rock can lead you to secular rock. I mean, christian rock came after secular rock, so it's kinda like there taking the idea from the world, so even though it's "christian rock" i don't believe that listening to it ALL the time is good. Immersing yourself in rock music is very harmful i think...
thanks BJ (do I know you?) - yeah, Bono Rocks!
Andrew: King David, if I recall correctly, first penned the command to praise God on musical instruments (or perhaps it was Moses). If you would claim that this is no longer valid because it is in the OT I would ask what words you use to praise God? Aren't they the very same words? I always found it hypocritical (for lack of a less offensive word) that the RP church I went to would sing "praise him on the harp and lyre", but would never actually do it and would claim that it was wrong to.
Is that what you were talking about? What did you mean NT vs. OT?
PS> I am not anti-RP (though it may sound that way) - I simply never have heard a good/strong argument for not using instruments in worship.
Ben - I agree with the instruments thing. I haven't heard terribly strong arguments for it, either. Except for the "undoctrinal" idea that it detracts from the words. Yeah, I've heard the other arguments, but I tend to agree with Ben. As an RP, though, I still find it awkward when I visit a church with instruments! Not that you suggest it Ben, but I'd also like to add that I don't think the instrument-deal would be worth leaving the RP church.
Anyways, here's a good article about Bono from WORLD Magazine - http://www.worldmag.com/articles/10892
I never said that we could not use insturments in worship. We are to sing a-capella Psalms and musical intrustaments were used as a temple worship NOT church. No where in the bible does it say sing with harp or lyer, or with the trumpet. we are commanded to sing the Psalms. Never were musical instruments used in church worship until the dark ages because people wanted to. I terrably wish I could go to the church that Andrew goes to because I've never sung without a guitar, piano or organ, but there aren't any churches here that would even think of it. I'll comment more later, for now i got AWANA.
yes thanks christina, that clears it up a bit...
Anyway, ben, i was just wondering where you were coming from. actually i haven't done enough study on this, but instruments in the old testemant were only used during sacrifices. The sacrificial process was done away with through Jesus. Along with the instruments. However, as Christina said, we are commanded to sing the Psalms, even though it has references to musical instruments.
You're welcome, Andrew.
Do you guys think that there is a certain way we are commanded to worship God or is it just opinion? I think that God has commanded a special way, and we're sinning if we aren't doing what He commands. And I do have evidence for this one. Genesis, when God liked Abel's sacrifice and not Cain's, because Cain's wasn't acceptable. Basically, worship wars have been here since the beginning of time. (hehe)
Yes, there is a right way (there is a "right way" for everything, if you think about it...). That's one reason I think singing the Psalms exclusively eliminates any problems of singing unworthy material - can't go wrong with God's word!
Okay. so i have a few questions to answer:
first, where do you see that instruments were used only during sacrifices? unless you can provide a scripture reference for that I will consider it...funny (for lack of mean-spiritedness to use a more mean term). Many Psalms are written "For the director of music" - who was he? also, remember who wrote the Psalms? DAVID! David himself was a musician and often inserted the instructional word "Selah", most likely meaning an instrumental interlude.
second, how was instrumentation "done away with"? The Bible never says "and because Christ offered himself up as a sacrifice you need no longer sacrifice or play instruments." That just doesn't seem to follow.
I agree with Nathan, I don't think this is worth leaving the RP over (and I was actually only going to the RP church because of complications with my family, so I didn't leave because I hated the worship style).
Psalms only? This is one that I haven't thought to much about mainly because I love hymns. Nathan said "can't go wrong with God's word" and he's right. And so when our Church considers what songs to sing we carefully consider the lyrics (I know this because I use to attend staff meetings). We don't pick songs to sing unless the lyrics are strong and consistent with God's word and we make sure we sing Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Songs.
Lastly (and I'm sorry for making this so long), Christina, yes there is right worship and wrong worship. But Cain's sacrifice was not acceptable because of his heart not his actions (though his actions would have been motivated by his heart). If we begrudge our worship to God, it is wrong worship no matter if we are singing Psalms or Hymns with or without accompaniment.
Andrew, I'm sorry for taking up so much space on your blog, I can continue this on my blog if you would rather.
nathan. i think that length of comments should be taken in to account and result in more point. this string is great. also. nice article on bono. real cool
heh no problem ben, some good thoughts, i like stimulating conversation...heh
yeah, jack, length of comments isn't bad idea
thanks everyone for some good discussion...
In Chronicles, I believe, there is a documented event of the Jews using instruments exc. during the sacrifice. I don't remember the exact reference, but if you want me to get the specific reference, I'll dig it up. :)
In regard to using instruments in the service, I've come to the conclusion that logically, I find not using instruments is better because you then are concentrating less on the music then on God. It also has the ability to drone your own voice out in some churches. :)
But on theological grounds, it can really go either way. It doesn't say to use instruments or not use them in the new testament. The command to use instruments from the old law was not carried over to the new law. So...
In regards to rock music, there is pyschological evidence that music affects the mind greater then people believe it too. Rock music, in my experience, causes people to act more negatively and over all, the lyrical content and the way rock music is formed, is anti-Christian and goes against how God created this earth which is in an organized and in a absolute beautiful way. That is a long sentence. :)
David, thanks for the input.
Andrew, I am just gonna post something on my blog about this: bcBlog
that was not me...just read the profile, you can't get to my blog and the edomites isn't listed...the REAL profile of andrew is different, i believe nathan had this problem too...
You can delete that comment, you know.
remember that passage your dad read to us a year and a half ago that had instrumentation before the sacrafice but then specifically not afterwards? I couldn't dig it up again if I needed to, but I do have a strong memory of it.
I did a research paper on rock music last year, and it definitely does affect us mentally through various things, not least of them the lyrics and subliminal messaging. I found this website (I don't know how trustworthy it was, it said it was chritian, but I did get some really weird facts off of it.) it had lists of stories of people who had commited suicide under posters of deathmetal bands and who shot people while wearing a discmen that had deathmetal cds in them. It was rather unerving. The same site said that the average age of death for rock musicains was in the 30's, and they had a list of rockers who had died and how. I think of the list of three hundred or so, one or two of them died a natural death. There were several electrocutions, four or five murders, thirty or so drug over doses, four or five drownings, a long list of car crashes, four or five plane crashes, a good fifteen suicides, the list went on...
Rock can be bad, but it can also be good, especially if it is for God's glory.
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